Maybe because we have different standards for an empire that existed almost 2000 years ago than to one that ended 100 years ago and that committed several atrocities that were the worst things ever done until that point, and still are among the top 10 of all time, in the last years of their history?
It’s like making a post saying “Why do people celebrate Athenian democracy when they were not as democratic as some modern democracies people criticize?”
AjdarChiili on
Reddit is primarily european/ american. It is normal for people to glaze their ascestors, so you end up seeing a lot more romaboos and ottoman haters, who are considered outsider. Likewise, the same thing in reverse occurs in other places
Tall_Location_9036 on
It’s irrational and tribal, but Rome is cool and Ottomans ain’t. Sorry.
MKHK32 on
One sensible reason could be that there are people on state level who would deny Ottoman atrocities but there are none who would deny Roman atrocities. That said there are certainly also people who are just racist/tribal
Right-Truck1859 on
British propaganda. Starting with Greek independence war in 1825 , it was heavy anti- Ottoman .
It’s influence spanned into France, USA…
Nuclear-Jester on
Both nations can bond over hating Persia
EsperiaEnthusiast on
Yeah multi-ethnic roman shit is honestly so pissing.
Like, mfer literally a single land was called “Owner of the Provinces”.
I will forever HATE the Severians. Italo-centric Rome was based and peak of Roman history.
kollenovski on
I just like red. Sorry man. Green is my second favorate.
Steph1er on
by the 19th century, people had a sense of decency, and critiqued those things while they were happening.
Slavery in roman time, was kind of just what happened, sure the victims would be angry about it, but there was not really any third party to look at it as barbaric
Altruistic-Farmer275 on
Oh hey! İt’s the beef I had with that other guy other day.
😀
Man I feel famous for once.
SaltyNeighborhood370 on
yes, and?
BagNo2988 on
Slavery in degrees is what I call it.
Baba-Shiv on
1) Eurocentric because Reddit and its audience is euro centric.
2) Those facts and statements about both Rome and the Ottoman Empire are both so juvenile and wrong, on many levels.
3) The real important part. People use historical empires and peoples to draw inspiration, reaffirm culture as well as identity, and draw stability from. Rome was for all intents and purposes our origin as Europeans. The damage of Rome however is left in the past. The displaced and murdered are long forgotten.
The ottomans however… their entire effects, from genocide to religious persecution… were still being carried out at the start of the 20th century. There are people alive today still struggling with the oppression they face from modern day Turkey. Greece… Armenians… etc etc
It’s totally understandable why hate or less attention is given to the Ottoman Empire today, or why it’s viewed less favourable by western audiences…
SilenceOfTheClamSoup on
Rule of cool, plus Ottomans unfortunately will forever be associated with a foot stool.
TheMidnightBear on
Hey, quick question.
Has any muslim in historical sources ever bitched about the damn dhimmis apparently doing whatever they wanted, and paying less taxes, while the muslim had to pay more, and also go to war?
Because i have plenty of sources of them gloating about how oppressed and burdened the non-muslims were, instead, so this islamist revisionist nonsense is always stupid to read.
[deleted] on
[deleted]
Draconic1788 on
I’m sure there are a lot of reasons which the comments have mentioned, but one I haven’t seen is the influence of Mussolini and Fascist Italy. The archeological and historiographical work that Fascist Italy did to make sure that everyone knew Rome was an incredible city and that the Roman Empire was the biggest and greatest empire of all time was extremely effective and had a long term effect on the historical memory of Rome. As written in *The Excavatory Intervention: Archaeology and the Chronopolitics of Roman Antiquity in Fascist Italy:*
‘Foreigners no longer mused about the power of time as they gazed at the moonlit Colosseum, or caroused with strolling mandolin-players; instead, they came to marvel at ‘that sense of order and discipline that distinguishes [Rome] from other capitals […], that renewed sense of classicism which, restored to life by Fascism, lives on today like the purest flame in the hearts of Italians’.’
TBARb_D_D on
More than a thousand years apart but they are similar. Rome has that ancient cool dust on it while Ottoman empire existed a little more than a century ago. You don’t want to see an Empire with slave based economy in 20th century and call it “good”
Also the genocide thing is the same, people look at genocides 2000 years ago with less questions than in genocide 100 years ago. French wouldn’t go and ask Italians for what Caesar did with Gauls but Armenian genocide was like here, if you are old enough it was possible that there was a person who lived through it and you could have spoken with them
Also Rome was “white” Christian and Ottomans were Turkic Muslim
Fuzlet on
i feel this same way about the disgusting spartans
Fletaun on
It simple because “they” the Ottoman are not “us” the Roman/European
klodmoris on
Why didn’t you mention the kidnapping of children from other cultures to turn them into warrior-slaves, and overall the importance of slave based economy throughout all of ottoman history?
SchwiftyBerliner on
Simple: Fans of the latter won’t acknowledge its atrocities and are easily triggered by mentioning them.
It’s an easy to close vulnerability, gotta have some fun with it before the devs patch it.
LastSeaworthiness767 on
Rome was best country in that period.
Ottoman was not.
019391 on
Recency bias probably
ddg31415 on
Ottomans wore big silly hats that looked like onions
Romns had centurions.
‘Nuff said
besidjuu211311 on
Rome may be bad but that doesn’t make the Ottomans any better if you apply the same logic to them.
BrokenTorpedo on
Ottoman’s atrocities were just 20th century, it’s far more recent and at the time also far less acceptable.
HaggisPope on
Got to say the castration puts me off the Ottomans quite a bit. Roman slavery was often more debt based and was a temporary position while Ottoman slavery took away a man’s ability to ever procreate and that is not good at all.
I can’t say I know everything about either empire and they both were long-lasting with different eras. So who knows, maybe there’s mitigating factors.
ergele on
if you destroy a culture entirely since they no longer exist they don’t get to write their history or their side
since Ottomans didn’t try to destroy cultures in Balkans when they got their freedom they based their identity around Ottoman oppression.
It’s about who is left to tell their stories and how loud they are.
Dangerous-Reindeer78 on
You using legal citizenship as a synonym for cultural integration is a very juvenile and oversimplified way to view that issue
I agree with the core message of the post but so much of the evidence you used to back it was just so obviously slanted
charea on
Armenians coexisted moslty peacefully with Muslims in the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The genocide happened when the Empire was on its last legs, literally organized by a revolutionary faction.
ATZ001 on
I don’t like Empires. Let alone Ottomans, but also Romans.
The only good Roman elites were the Gracchi bros. All others were either elitists who would do anything but help the poor or help the poor in exchange for unlimited power.
Ottomans practiced slavery as well as the Romans, and the Dutch Republic and PLC offered refuge for religious minorities as well.
Mr_K_Boom on
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Khalimdorh on
One can’t even compare the legacy of the two.
Classic_Fuel8599 on
I think the fact that the Armenian Genocide happened while my grandparents were alive (and one of them still is) played a big role. And i’m not saying this because they were involved, we aren’t turks or armenians, but to emphasise the fact that it happened only about 100 years ago, when i had direct family members already alive , compared to the Roman Empire, which was around 2000 years ago.
Sarmi7 on
Never(*)
Rickabeast on
Denying or making little of any genocide is morally egregious. Seeing certain comments engaging in competitions of one upmanship over the deaths of millions completely misses the point.
Its possible to say “my ancestors committed unspeakable crimes” without wagging a finger at someone else in an attempt to undermine what their ancestors really did.
Genocide bad no matter who did it, and when.
Lord_TachankaCro on
OP either knows absolutely nothing about history or is spreading propaganda.
> Allowed all conquered peoples to continue their religious practices without interference
Very interesting way to say, kidnapped and enslaved Christian children in order to turn them to soldiers.
While Europe was turning it’s back on slavery in Europe and banning it here (not in the colonies obviously), Ottoman Empire had a systematic campaign of enslaving children, ripping them away from their family. On top of that they practiced slavery well into 20th century despite banning it.
A shitty empire that got what it deserved.
Main_Following1881 on
Ottomans pre 1700s where goated ngl, they simply lasted too long
nostalgic_angel on
Turks were used as a slur within ottoman empire to describe uncivilised goat herders and peasants. The “civilised” urban turks called themselves Rumi. Many of the pashas were not turkish, but Greek and Albanian, including the so called “father of modern egypt” Mohammand Ali Pahsa.
The Ottomans cannot even control its own government
A_posh_idiot on
Could it be, and I know this is a novel idea so bear with me, that historical empires worked of a different period of mortality and judging historical empires by modern standards instead of comparing them to there contemporaries is a stupid idea and we can celebrate some of the stuff they built and did whilst accepting that they are awful people by modern standards
Level_Low6101 on
The problem was, the Ottoman Empire stayed like that, even when the rest of the world became more progressive. At some point, they became the bigots stuck in the past.
Delcane on
Western and to a lesser extent Eastern Europe is in many ways a politically disassembled continuation of Rome while the Otomans didn’t form the basis of modern European culture, they came from Persia and started claiming roman heritage while the ongoing society in Europe was already thriving parallel to it.
It isn’t hard to see why one would be seen as an usurper while the other isn’t
VoidCrow on
Rome had cooler headgear, simple as.
niknniknnikn on
Posting the two side by side as if to imply one isnt a direct continuation of another o_O
45 Comments
Maybe because we have different standards for an empire that existed almost 2000 years ago than to one that ended 100 years ago and that committed several atrocities that were the worst things ever done until that point, and still are among the top 10 of all time, in the last years of their history?
It’s like making a post saying “Why do people celebrate Athenian democracy when they were not as democratic as some modern democracies people criticize?”
Reddit is primarily european/ american. It is normal for people to glaze their ascestors, so you end up seeing a lot more romaboos and ottoman haters, who are considered outsider. Likewise, the same thing in reverse occurs in other places
It’s irrational and tribal, but Rome is cool and Ottomans ain’t. Sorry.
One sensible reason could be that there are people on state level who would deny Ottoman atrocities but there are none who would deny Roman atrocities. That said there are certainly also people who are just racist/tribal
British propaganda. Starting with Greek independence war in 1825 , it was heavy anti- Ottoman .
It’s influence spanned into France, USA…
Both nations can bond over hating Persia
Yeah multi-ethnic roman shit is honestly so pissing.
Like, mfer literally a single land was called “Owner of the Provinces”.
I will forever HATE the Severians. Italo-centric Rome was based and peak of Roman history.
I just like red. Sorry man. Green is my second favorate.
by the 19th century, people had a sense of decency, and critiqued those things while they were happening.
Slavery in roman time, was kind of just what happened, sure the victims would be angry about it, but there was not really any third party to look at it as barbaric
Oh hey! İt’s the beef I had with that other guy other day.
😀
Man I feel famous for once.
yes, and?
Slavery in degrees is what I call it.
1) Eurocentric because Reddit and its audience is euro centric.
2) Those facts and statements about both Rome and the Ottoman Empire are both so juvenile and wrong, on many levels.
3) The real important part. People use historical empires and peoples to draw inspiration, reaffirm culture as well as identity, and draw stability from. Rome was for all intents and purposes our origin as Europeans. The damage of Rome however is left in the past. The displaced and murdered are long forgotten.
The ottomans however… their entire effects, from genocide to religious persecution… were still being carried out at the start of the 20th century. There are people alive today still struggling with the oppression they face from modern day Turkey. Greece… Armenians… etc etc
It’s totally understandable why hate or less attention is given to the Ottoman Empire today, or why it’s viewed less favourable by western audiences…
Rule of cool, plus Ottomans unfortunately will forever be associated with a foot stool.
Hey, quick question.
Has any muslim in historical sources ever bitched about the damn dhimmis apparently doing whatever they wanted, and paying less taxes, while the muslim had to pay more, and also go to war?
Because i have plenty of sources of them gloating about how oppressed and burdened the non-muslims were, instead, so this islamist revisionist nonsense is always stupid to read.
[deleted]
I’m sure there are a lot of reasons which the comments have mentioned, but one I haven’t seen is the influence of Mussolini and Fascist Italy. The archeological and historiographical work that Fascist Italy did to make sure that everyone knew Rome was an incredible city and that the Roman Empire was the biggest and greatest empire of all time was extremely effective and had a long term effect on the historical memory of Rome. As written in *The Excavatory Intervention: Archaeology and the Chronopolitics of Roman Antiquity in Fascist Italy:*
‘Foreigners no longer mused about the power of time as they gazed at the moonlit Colosseum, or caroused with strolling mandolin-players; instead, they came to marvel at ‘that sense of order and discipline that distinguishes [Rome] from other capitals […], that renewed sense of classicism which, restored to life by Fascism, lives on today like the purest flame in the hearts of Italians’.’
More than a thousand years apart but they are similar. Rome has that ancient cool dust on it while Ottoman empire existed a little more than a century ago. You don’t want to see an Empire with slave based economy in 20th century and call it “good”
Also the genocide thing is the same, people look at genocides 2000 years ago with less questions than in genocide 100 years ago. French wouldn’t go and ask Italians for what Caesar did with Gauls but Armenian genocide was like here, if you are old enough it was possible that there was a person who lived through it and you could have spoken with them
Also Rome was “white” Christian and Ottomans were Turkic Muslim
i feel this same way about the disgusting spartans
It simple because “they” the Ottoman are not “us” the Roman/European
Why didn’t you mention the kidnapping of children from other cultures to turn them into warrior-slaves, and overall the importance of slave based economy throughout all of ottoman history?
Simple: Fans of the latter won’t acknowledge its atrocities and are easily triggered by mentioning them.
It’s an easy to close vulnerability, gotta have some fun with it before the devs patch it.
Rome was best country in that period.
Ottoman was not.
Recency bias probably
Ottomans wore big silly hats that looked like onions
Romns had centurions.
‘Nuff said
Rome may be bad but that doesn’t make the Ottomans any better if you apply the same logic to them.
Ottoman’s atrocities were just 20th century, it’s far more recent and at the time also far less acceptable.
Got to say the castration puts me off the Ottomans quite a bit. Roman slavery was often more debt based and was a temporary position while Ottoman slavery took away a man’s ability to ever procreate and that is not good at all.
I can’t say I know everything about either empire and they both were long-lasting with different eras. So who knows, maybe there’s mitigating factors.
if you destroy a culture entirely since they no longer exist they don’t get to write their history or their side
since Ottomans didn’t try to destroy cultures in Balkans when they got their freedom they based their identity around Ottoman oppression.
It’s about who is left to tell their stories and how loud they are.
You using legal citizenship as a synonym for cultural integration is a very juvenile and oversimplified way to view that issue
I agree with the core message of the post but so much of the evidence you used to back it was just so obviously slanted
Armenians coexisted moslty peacefully with Muslims in the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The genocide happened when the Empire was on its last legs, literally organized by a revolutionary faction.
I don’t like Empires. Let alone Ottomans, but also Romans.
The only good Roman elites were the Gracchi bros. All others were either elitists who would do anything but help the poor or help the poor in exchange for unlimited power.
Ottomans practiced slavery as well as the Romans, and the Dutch Republic and PLC offered refuge for religious minorities as well.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
One can’t even compare the legacy of the two.
I think the fact that the Armenian Genocide happened while my grandparents were alive (and one of them still is) played a big role. And i’m not saying this because they were involved, we aren’t turks or armenians, but to emphasise the fact that it happened only about 100 years ago, when i had direct family members already alive , compared to the Roman Empire, which was around 2000 years ago.
Never(*)
Denying or making little of any genocide is morally egregious. Seeing certain comments engaging in competitions of one upmanship over the deaths of millions completely misses the point.
Its possible to say “my ancestors committed unspeakable crimes” without wagging a finger at someone else in an attempt to undermine what their ancestors really did.
Genocide bad no matter who did it, and when.
OP either knows absolutely nothing about history or is spreading propaganda.
> Allowed all conquered peoples to continue their religious practices without interference
Very interesting way to say, kidnapped and enslaved Christian children in order to turn them to soldiers.
While Europe was turning it’s back on slavery in Europe and banning it here (not in the colonies obviously), Ottoman Empire had a systematic campaign of enslaving children, ripping them away from their family. On top of that they practiced slavery well into 20th century despite banning it.
A shitty empire that got what it deserved.
Ottomans pre 1700s where goated ngl, they simply lasted too long
Turks were used as a slur within ottoman empire to describe uncivilised goat herders and peasants. The “civilised” urban turks called themselves Rumi. Many of the pashas were not turkish, but Greek and Albanian, including the so called “father of modern egypt” Mohammand Ali Pahsa.
The Ottomans cannot even control its own government
Could it be, and I know this is a novel idea so bear with me, that historical empires worked of a different period of mortality and judging historical empires by modern standards instead of comparing them to there contemporaries is a stupid idea and we can celebrate some of the stuff they built and did whilst accepting that they are awful people by modern standards
The problem was, the Ottoman Empire stayed like that, even when the rest of the world became more progressive. At some point, they became the bigots stuck in the past.
Western and to a lesser extent Eastern Europe is in many ways a politically disassembled continuation of Rome while the Otomans didn’t form the basis of modern European culture, they came from Persia and started claiming roman heritage while the ongoing society in Europe was already thriving parallel to it.
It isn’t hard to see why one would be seen as an usurper while the other isn’t
Rome had cooler headgear, simple as.
Posting the two side by side as if to imply one isnt a direct continuation of another o_O