Gödel’s Loophole can happen at any time…
by Nyctfall
Gödel’s Loophole can happen at any time…
by Nyctfall
27 Comments
Context needed.
Surely this was just a non-expert’s flawed reading of the constitution. The checks and balances inherent in the separation of powers would immediately shut such an attempt down, right? Right?
The comments here have a chance to go VERY bad. hoping that doesn’t happen
«A loophole that can turn the entire country fascist at any time?»
«Yes»
«May I see it?»
«…no»
Why are people still bringing this up?
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so the argument is basically amendments don’t have any limits… isn’t that kinda the whole thing of an amendment…? Like are you in other countries able to just directly block amendments? Wouldn’t that give courts a lot of power in terms of deciding whether or not an amendment is legal (eg, they could block equal rights amendments)? Idk I feel like fascist states don’t care about laws anyways so the constitution already is a piece of paper to them.
is he talking about specific acts or like just that the constitution itself is technically flexible?
I mean, if we aren’t talking about actual Fascism and then just talking about dictators then that’s just a difference of how power is centralised. and at that point in the discussion what’s the difference between an endless hydra of administration and a dictator functionally for the average person and societal function?
either way the public isn’t represented and power by nature is autocratic, only difference to me is how long the executions take when they fuck up enough.
The loophole is basically that there are no laws if they are not enforced.
It’s morbidly funny to me that [Gödel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_Loophole) acted like this was some kind of Lovecraftian info hazard when we already know several ways it could be done. You can pass an amendment saying “the US is a fascist dictatorship now.” You can get a fascist party to control congress and at least 5/9 SCOTUS judges (oops). This isn’t a secret.
[Someone wrote an alternate history timeline with that premise, and laid out the legal framework of how the loophole might have worked.](https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tliaw-g%C3%B6dels-loophole-s.542037/)
Honestly, this is more Gödel’s high-functioning autism talking. He wasn’t wrong, but he appeared not to understand that any democratic system, no matter how robust, is potentially vulnerable to authoritarian takeover because people are always capable of signing away their own liberties. It wasn’t (isn’t) something unique to the United States, and you didn’t need to use any sophisticated logical reasoning on the text of the Constitution to figure that out
Is this not just one of the downsides of Democracy? If you elect strongmen and fascists, of course your country can become fascist. How do you think it happened in Nazi Germany?
Am I missing the whole “loophole” here? This doesn’t seem like some genius theorem, moreso basic political logic
Well…yeah. The constitution is only worth what the people think it’s worth
Why does he look like Max Fosh
Because uhhhh… people can vote for fascism
In democracy, dictatorship is only 1 vote away
I mean, kind of, but all dictatorships rely on its citizens not having the rights guaranteed to them in the Bill of Rights. While they are amendments they are considered inviolable.
And so here we are
I mean, all constitutions at the end if the day are just words on paper. Their legitimacy is entirely dependent on how they are upheld. The fortunate thing about the US constitution is that it is very difficult to change and requires a lot of institutional support to do so. So yes, you could amend it into a dictatorship but at the point where you could amend the constitution to install a dictator. That dictator wouldn’t really need to adhere to the constitution if they have that much support.
Well they did take the Roman Republic as their model which had a supposedly ‘limited ‘ dictatorial post that would expire, but one crisis after another meant this became a permanent fixture for the person who’d no longer respect precedent or social or political norms.
We’ve been watching this loophole play out for the last 10 years.
Don’t worry, the founding father included something for if such a loophole existed, it’s called the seccond ammendment
Too bad it seems like the loophole would be accepted in today’s politics
What if Gödel was just a sovereign citizen, though?
That’s not a loophole, it’s just how power works. The text of the constitution doesn’t protect us. The only thing that protects against fascists is keeping them out of power or organizing effectively so they can’t govern.
Any system of government can, through legal loopholes become dictatorship, more at 12
May I at this point draw people attention to Rex 84.
Remember reading a book in which a couple of nazi higher ups visited the US in the late 20s or early 30s and they were impressed at the two party system and how easy it would be to manipulate.