Context: In the 1530s, a group of preachers used the teachings of Luther’s reformation and became a cult, the Anabaptists, that took over the control of German city Münster. After one of the founders, Jan Matthys, died during the siege of the Catholic army from the surrounding cities, Jan van Leiden took control, radicalised everything connected to the Anabaptists, and established a terror regime. The Catholics regained more and more power and eventually an army led by bishop Franz van Waldeck sacked the city and killed all remaining Anabaptists. The remaining leaders, Jan van Leiden, Bernd Krechting and Bernd Knipperdolling, were tortured to death and their corpses displayed in cages above the cathedral gates.
VewVegas-1221 on
Goober bam don tootavic when when he took gobbledygook from the gimblegombles, 1535:
20 downvotes lol. I want anyone who is willing to tell me exactly what’s wrong with this comment?
p_pio on
That’s generally the issue with destroying institutional order. It’s done to fight corruption, but if pushed to it’s extreme it instead provide void filled out by the very worst in humanity. Because older institutions, that exists for longer time put restraints on them.
So you thought senate rule should be destroyed due to corruption? Got authoritarianism. So you dislike Church? Got some really screwed sects. So aristocracy is screwing you over? Welcome to the Terror.
That’s why when you hear “fighting with corruption, the system” etc. as primary point: it’s often needed, but if that’s really the only point, that’s a red flag and you should ask yourself: are things really *that* bad?
ash_tar on
Most of the time really.
Comrade_tau on
Doesn’t sound that the catholic were any more reasonable. After they overthrew the “terror regime” they just massacred everybody? Surely everything the Anabaptists managed to do Catholics also did? Burnings, persecutions, etc.
Granted I don’t know what begin cult or terror regime means in context.
Teeminister on
1535 wasn’t in the middle ages anymore
MetricAbsinthe on
This made me realize it’s been like 10 years since I listened to the Dan carlin episode on this. I should go back for a relisten.
EnergyHumble3613 on
TBF to the Anabaptists they didn’t start as a full blown doomsday cult.
That was a splinter group of a splinter group that decided that Revelations were upon them and their Prophet could allegedly talk directly to God.
The OG Anabaptists were hated by both Catholics and other Protestants because:
1) The belief that everyone should be baptized again as adults as they were now old enough to fully comprehend what they were accepting as Christians.
2) That Christians should live communally and should be equal on Earth as they will be in Heaven… no personal property and no class distinctions. No more rich people or kings.
3) Return to pacifist origins of Christianity like those the Romans threw to the lions in arenas.
That second point in particular essentially was enough to get most other Protestants to agree with Catholics to put any Anabaptists they found to death… often by drowning them in a 3rd baptism as it was called.
This would drive Anabaptists underground but their message spread, even amongst clergymen, as printed pamphlets circulated.
The situation at Münster came about by a conspiratorial plot by a more violent splinter group who believed that the end times were upon them and that the city would be their new Zion from which they could gather the faithful and march forth to conquer the unworthy… instead it got a ton of people killed and the surviving leaders of the conspiracy were drawn and quartered before their bodies were interred in gibbets for all to see.
The gibbet cages remain though the bodies have long since rotted or been removed as a historical reminder to modern Münster to not dive into fanatical belief or treason.
AndreasNarvartensis on
Many times. That the protestants were the “good guys” is just a nationalistic trope that ignores their own fanaticism.
9 Comments
Context: In the 1530s, a group of preachers used the teachings of Luther’s reformation and became a cult, the Anabaptists, that took over the control of German city Münster. After one of the founders, Jan Matthys, died during the siege of the Catholic army from the surrounding cities, Jan van Leiden took control, radicalised everything connected to the Anabaptists, and established a terror regime. The Catholics regained more and more power and eventually an army led by bishop Franz van Waldeck sacked the city and killed all remaining Anabaptists. The remaining leaders, Jan van Leiden, Bernd Krechting and Bernd Knipperdolling, were tortured to death and their corpses displayed in cages above the cathedral gates.
Goober bam don tootavic when when he took gobbledygook from the gimblegombles, 1535:
20 downvotes lol. I want anyone who is willing to tell me exactly what’s wrong with this comment?
That’s generally the issue with destroying institutional order. It’s done to fight corruption, but if pushed to it’s extreme it instead provide void filled out by the very worst in humanity. Because older institutions, that exists for longer time put restraints on them.
So you thought senate rule should be destroyed due to corruption? Got authoritarianism. So you dislike Church? Got some really screwed sects. So aristocracy is screwing you over? Welcome to the Terror.
That’s why when you hear “fighting with corruption, the system” etc. as primary point: it’s often needed, but if that’s really the only point, that’s a red flag and you should ask yourself: are things really *that* bad?
Most of the time really.
Doesn’t sound that the catholic were any more reasonable. After they overthrew the “terror regime” they just massacred everybody? Surely everything the Anabaptists managed to do Catholics also did? Burnings, persecutions, etc.
Granted I don’t know what begin cult or terror regime means in context.
1535 wasn’t in the middle ages anymore
This made me realize it’s been like 10 years since I listened to the Dan carlin episode on this. I should go back for a relisten.
TBF to the Anabaptists they didn’t start as a full blown doomsday cult.
That was a splinter group of a splinter group that decided that Revelations were upon them and their Prophet could allegedly talk directly to God.
The OG Anabaptists were hated by both Catholics and other Protestants because:
1) The belief that everyone should be baptized again as adults as they were now old enough to fully comprehend what they were accepting as Christians.
2) That Christians should live communally and should be equal on Earth as they will be in Heaven… no personal property and no class distinctions. No more rich people or kings.
3) Return to pacifist origins of Christianity like those the Romans threw to the lions in arenas.
That second point in particular essentially was enough to get most other Protestants to agree with Catholics to put any Anabaptists they found to death… often by drowning them in a 3rd baptism as it was called.
This would drive Anabaptists underground but their message spread, even amongst clergymen, as printed pamphlets circulated.
The situation at Münster came about by a conspiratorial plot by a more violent splinter group who believed that the end times were upon them and that the city would be their new Zion from which they could gather the faithful and march forth to conquer the unworthy… instead it got a ton of people killed and the surviving leaders of the conspiracy were drawn and quartered before their bodies were interred in gibbets for all to see.
The gibbet cages remain though the bodies have long since rotted or been removed as a historical reminder to modern Münster to not dive into fanatical belief or treason.
Many times. That the protestants were the “good guys” is just a nationalistic trope that ignores their own fanaticism.