Germany went qualitiy over quantitiy not becauce they thought it was superior but because they weren’t able to build quantitiy
iceman27l on
Well if you don’t really care about casualties the quantity is sometimes superior, considering how big is the technological gap (be a major technological difference) and also what is the number difference. Like Russia is the primary example to use quantity, but of course they didn’t really care about casualties and that why they were so effective
Braziliashadow on
It really depends on the equipment. A Soviet shitbox Mosin wasn’t better than a Karabiner or a Lee Enfield, but it was good enough. While a Soviet shitbox called the T-34 wasn’t better than any Nazi tank, they did well because tanks didn’t fight tanks most of the time; also if the enemy has longer range, higher rate of fire or spots you first, didn’t really matter if the tank was a shitbox or not, it’ll probably get nuked.
Quality vs quantity isn’t a good argument for if something was good. If it was outdated conceptually and in practice by the time it was operational is.
SydDanir on
I mean, the M4 Sherman is ALSO better in quality than the Panzer IV and the Panther, so it is not a quantity vs quality argument in the first place.
As for the Tiger, well, better a decent tank that actually shows up, than an otherwise better tank that doesn’t. Reliability is also quality.
But, to summarize, soft factors are important.
Alkynesofchemistry on
Quality over quantity mfers when the enemy does both:
watergosploosh on
Quality tanks don’t get their transmissions break every so often
FLG_CFC on
Nothing stops Sherman’s march to the sea.
The-marx-channel on
Quantity can be ignored when you pump your tank operators with meth
Helpful_Effect_5215 on
If only that transferred to American infantry wish it didn’t. The Germans were actually winning the attrition war on the Infantry side of things Against The Americans since they kept sending their soldiers on suicide missions to capture completely useless villages both in Italy and Germany. There’s a reason the lifespan of an American World War II Rifleman was like 5 days at most
Worried-Pick4848 on
The Sherman could hold its own a lot better than many people think. The big advantage of the Sherman over German armor is its ergonomics and vision. General MacNair’s insistence on “fightability” ensured that ergonomics were not an afterthought. As a result the Sherman was one of the easiest tanks in the entire war to drive.
Furthermore, instead of a telescope, the gunner got his own independent periscope, and Sherman doctrine permitted him to call his own shots.
That meant that the Sherman had a vastly easier time spotting, identifying, and putting a shot on a German tank before the German realized that they’d been made. Even with superior guns and armor, the FIBSA factor ensured that the Sherman won nearly every engagement in which it fired first, and even Shermans with the old smoothbore 75 could just keep hammering a tank with HE until the crew either died of spall wounds or got out of the tank. The old gun wasn’t great, but it did have an impressive rate of fire, and could say “PEEKABOO I SEE YOU” in a way that transcended languages.
As a result, the Panther had like a 1.1-1 kill ratio against the Sherman when the Panther was on DEFENSE. Despite every advantage of concealment and entrenchment, the Sherman STILLl saw the Panther first enough times to keep the kill rate about even.
Bottom line, even with all the angst from guys like Belton Cooper. Leslie MacNair was right about fightability, and gave us a tank that could win the war. It just didn’t look as sexy while winning as the German armor did while losing.
RestaurantBoring417 on
HistoryMemes users when you tell them that there is more history than just WW2
Lost-Klaus on
A nation with barely a quarter continent worth of land with some production being outproduced by a nation with over half a continent that is basically untouchable with a young, booming economy.
“Hurdur, Sherman many lots.”
Yeah, but the US didn’t fight a two front war for a long time the decimated its economy, didn’t have to deal with after WWI reparations and all the shit that followed.
This is much like comparing France vs Belgium in an all out war and then claiming that Belgium did it wrong.
I am not defending the nazi ideology, but the fact that the germans even managed to get as far as they did, is an impressive (if horrifying) feat.
East-Plankton-3877 on
Quantity MFs when half their mass produced crap doesn’t even reach the front because of mechanical
Problems and they wonder why they don’t have any experienced crews 🤦♂️
ViolinistPleasant982 on
The true kind is logistics. Demoralize your enemy by eating cake and ice-cream shipped halfway around the world well they can barely get a replacement part from a factory 3 towns over.
commissarcainrecaff on
I saw a documentary about an 88mm gun crew in France in 1944
The loader said: “One day every time they sent a Sherman down the track we knocked it out. But they kept sending them. We ran out of shells before they ran out of tanks. And that’s how we lost the war”
jewghurt4570 on
This also does not include that late war there were Sherman’s like the 76 jumbo that were pretty even with the tiger and other tanks.
lardexatemydog on
The sherman was quality and quantity. I will die on the hill that the sherman was the best overall tank of the war.
Key-Department-4288 on
US needs to take notes if it wants to win a war against china
Remarkable-0815 on
“Quality over quantity” guys when the war is coming to an end:
[insert picture of Volkssturm grandpas and boys holding sticks with a hollow charge attached to them]
PedanticPolymath on
“Quantity has a quality all its own”
– Thomas A. Callaghan Jr (often misattributed to Stalin)
OOOshafiqOOO003 on
This is why i keep production cost for my tanks cheap in HOI4 ~~and allied with the Americans, for democracy!~~
Abs0lute_disaster on
The ‘quality’ of German tanks won’t win the war if they keep breaking down before they get to the frontlines
Keyvan316 on
“One Tiger can take out 10 Shermans but The Americans always have 11”
ImpossibleRoutine780 on
They also built incredibly intricate designs which during combat not the best if something is broken. While Sherman’s were able to be repaired in the field.
CaptCynicalPants on
I mean, if your tank is getting “surrounded” then multiple other mistakes have already taken place.
McGillis_is_a_Char on
TFW the most effective German armor is just a bunch of 88mms in casemates and not the Uber tanks that the Wehrmacht stans hype up. Heck, some of those casemate tank destroyers were just old Czech tanks in hats.
26 Comments
Germany went qualitiy over quantitiy not becauce they thought it was superior but because they weren’t able to build quantitiy
Well if you don’t really care about casualties the quantity is sometimes superior, considering how big is the technological gap (be a major technological difference) and also what is the number difference. Like Russia is the primary example to use quantity, but of course they didn’t really care about casualties and that why they were so effective
It really depends on the equipment. A Soviet shitbox Mosin wasn’t better than a Karabiner or a Lee Enfield, but it was good enough. While a Soviet shitbox called the T-34 wasn’t better than any Nazi tank, they did well because tanks didn’t fight tanks most of the time; also if the enemy has longer range, higher rate of fire or spots you first, didn’t really matter if the tank was a shitbox or not, it’ll probably get nuked.
Quality vs quantity isn’t a good argument for if something was good. If it was outdated conceptually and in practice by the time it was operational is.
I mean, the M4 Sherman is ALSO better in quality than the Panzer IV and the Panther, so it is not a quantity vs quality argument in the first place.
As for the Tiger, well, better a decent tank that actually shows up, than an otherwise better tank that doesn’t. Reliability is also quality.
But, to summarize, soft factors are important.
Quality over quantity mfers when the enemy does both:
Quality tanks don’t get their transmissions break every so often
Nothing stops Sherman’s march to the sea.
Quantity can be ignored when you pump your tank operators with meth
If only that transferred to American infantry wish it didn’t. The Germans were actually winning the attrition war on the Infantry side of things Against The Americans since they kept sending their soldiers on suicide missions to capture completely useless villages both in Italy and Germany. There’s a reason the lifespan of an American World War II Rifleman was like 5 days at most
The Sherman could hold its own a lot better than many people think. The big advantage of the Sherman over German armor is its ergonomics and vision. General MacNair’s insistence on “fightability” ensured that ergonomics were not an afterthought. As a result the Sherman was one of the easiest tanks in the entire war to drive.
Furthermore, instead of a telescope, the gunner got his own independent periscope, and Sherman doctrine permitted him to call his own shots.
That meant that the Sherman had a vastly easier time spotting, identifying, and putting a shot on a German tank before the German realized that they’d been made. Even with superior guns and armor, the FIBSA factor ensured that the Sherman won nearly every engagement in which it fired first, and even Shermans with the old smoothbore 75 could just keep hammering a tank with HE until the crew either died of spall wounds or got out of the tank. The old gun wasn’t great, but it did have an impressive rate of fire, and could say “PEEKABOO I SEE YOU” in a way that transcended languages.
As a result, the Panther had like a 1.1-1 kill ratio against the Sherman when the Panther was on DEFENSE. Despite every advantage of concealment and entrenchment, the Sherman STILLl saw the Panther first enough times to keep the kill rate about even.
Bottom line, even with all the angst from guys like Belton Cooper. Leslie MacNair was right about fightability, and gave us a tank that could win the war. It just didn’t look as sexy while winning as the German armor did while losing.
HistoryMemes users when you tell them that there is more history than just WW2
A nation with barely a quarter continent worth of land with some production being outproduced by a nation with over half a continent that is basically untouchable with a young, booming economy.
“Hurdur, Sherman many lots.”
Yeah, but the US didn’t fight a two front war for a long time the decimated its economy, didn’t have to deal with after WWI reparations and all the shit that followed.
This is much like comparing France vs Belgium in an all out war and then claiming that Belgium did it wrong.
I am not defending the nazi ideology, but the fact that the germans even managed to get as far as they did, is an impressive (if horrifying) feat.
Quantity MFs when half their mass produced crap doesn’t even reach the front because of mechanical
Problems and they wonder why they don’t have any experienced crews 🤦♂️
The true kind is logistics. Demoralize your enemy by eating cake and ice-cream shipped halfway around the world well they can barely get a replacement part from a factory 3 towns over.
I saw a documentary about an 88mm gun crew in France in 1944
The loader said: “One day every time they sent a Sherman down the track we knocked it out. But they kept sending them. We ran out of shells before they ran out of tanks. And that’s how we lost the war”
This also does not include that late war there were Sherman’s like the 76 jumbo that were pretty even with the tiger and other tanks.
The sherman was quality and quantity. I will die on the hill that the sherman was the best overall tank of the war.
US needs to take notes if it wants to win a war against china
“Quality over quantity” guys when the war is coming to an end:
[insert picture of Volkssturm grandpas and boys holding sticks with a hollow charge attached to them]
“Quantity has a quality all its own”
– Thomas A. Callaghan Jr (often misattributed to Stalin)
This is why i keep production cost for my tanks cheap in HOI4 ~~and allied with the Americans, for democracy!~~
The ‘quality’ of German tanks won’t win the war if they keep breaking down before they get to the frontlines
“One Tiger can take out 10 Shermans but The Americans always have 11”
They also built incredibly intricate designs which during combat not the best if something is broken. While Sherman’s were able to be repaired in the field.
I mean, if your tank is getting “surrounded” then multiple other mistakes have already taken place.
TFW the most effective German armor is just a bunch of 88mms in casemates and not the Uber tanks that the Wehrmacht stans hype up. Heck, some of those casemate tank destroyers were just old Czech tanks in hats.